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Me5794
Guildmage
Joined: 20 Oct 2007
Posts: 344
Location: Jacksonville,Fl
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 Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 9:55 am Post subject: [Official Thread] RG Aggro |
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Deck Owner: Lost but Seeking
Deck Name: RG Aggro
Deck Place: 2 Euro 6.16
4 Basking Rootwalla
4 Fiery Temper
2 Fireblast
3 Firebolt
1 Forgotten Cave
3 Granger Guildmage
2 Gruul Turf
4 Incinerate
4 Lightning Bolt
3 River Boa
3 Scab-Clan Mauler
10 Snow-Covered Forest
8 Snow-Covered Mountain
1 Tranquil Thicket
4 Wild Mongrel
4 Gathan Raiders
Sideboard
3 Jolrael's Centaur
4 Nantuko Vigilante
4 Tin Street Hooligan
4 Ghostfire
This is the Official Thread for Discussions on RG Aggro. Feel Free to Post Lists and Discuss.
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SpikeBoyM
Community Liaison
Joined: 23 Oct 2007
Posts: 1373
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| Posted: Sat Oct 27, 2007 6:07 am Post subject: |
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My current list:
4 Basking Rootwalla
2 Fireblast
4 Firebolt
1 Forgotten Cave
2 Gruul Turf
4 Incinerate
4 Lightning Bolt
4 River Boa
4 Scab-Clan Mauler
4 Skarrgan Pit-Skulk
9 Snow-Covered Forest
9 Snow-Covered Mountain
1 Tranquil Thicket
4 Wild Mongrel
4 Gathan Raiders
Sideboard
4 Jolrael's Centaur
3 Nantuko Vigilante
4 Tin Street Hooligan
4 Martyr of Ashes
I prefer this build currently for a few reasons. The Skulks are better against Grand Entrance than the Guildmages because it would take more to kill one. Guildmage, while great against GE, does not stick if it does not come down early.
And while I love the synergy of Temper with both Mongrel and Raiders, Lightning Bolt is just better.
-Alex
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Lost but Seeking
Guildmage
Joined: 31 Oct 2007
Posts: 262
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| Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2007 1:23 pm Post subject: |
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I don't see in what way skulks are better than guildmages vs GE. Neither my version nor yours runs Giant Growth effects/equipment so they are blocked by every dude a UW mage casts, most of their creatures can stop the skulk even without a bonesplitter attached.
As for Lightning Bolt vs Fiery Temper, you have probably missed that I run both.
Overall I was quite happy with that list, except I swapped one Temper for the 4th River Boa and put LD back into the sideboard after that tournament. Lack of LD cost me the victory there, or so I think.
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 Classic 7.06 | Euro 3.03,3.05 | Mini 4.10,5.03,5.05, Season 3 Worlds | UPDC 2.17
 Classic 8.08,9.07 | Euro 3.05,3.07,3.08,4.04,4.06(UnCon Edition),5.03,6.02,6.16 | Mini 3.03,3.05,4.05,4.07,4.11,5.14,5.16,6.03,6.09,6.11 | UPDC 1.10 |
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icarodx
Planeswalker
Joined: 22 Oct 2007
Posts: 1427
Location: Curitiba - Brazil
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SpikeBoyM
Community Liaison
Joined: 23 Oct 2007
Posts: 1373
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| Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 8:23 am Post subject: |
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That's the jist of it. Granger is awesome if it comes down early against GE, but if it comes down on turn three or later, it is usually a target for Longbow. Skulk, on the other hand, is better against Longbow, as it requires an extra activation. It also can't be blocked bu a good number of creatures in GE (unless they're carrying Bonesplitter).
-Alex
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Lost but Seeking
Guildmage
Joined: 31 Oct 2007
Posts: 262
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| Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 12:31 pm Post subject: |
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Well, that's hardly convincing, because the longbow is a one-off and is usually fetched by the Trinket Mage which conveniently is a 2/2 and blocks the Skulk. The Guildmage on the other hand kills 1/1 Ninja enablers, and helps finish off the Walker if need be.
Did I mention I hate bloodthirsty creatures clogging my hand with no way to cast them *enhanced*?...
Overall I'm positively sure Guildmage is a more versatile card.
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Classic 8.08,9.07 | Euro 3.05,3.07,3.08,4.04,4.06(UnCon Edition),5.03,6.02,6.16 | Mini 3.03,3.05,4.05,4.07,4.11,5.14,5.16,6.03,6.09,6.11 | UPDC 1.10 |
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SpikeBoyM
Community Liaison
Joined: 23 Oct 2007
Posts: 1373
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| Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 12:55 pm Post subject: |
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I don't disagree about the versatility of Guildmage. In fact, I think it is a better card overall.
However, given a metagame with both GE with Longbow, which can come online turn 4 easily, and Burn Range, I still like Skulk. Those self pings from Granger build up over time and can basically be a Time Walk for a Burn Range opponent. For the RG versus Burn matchup, I found those life points to be extremely precious. I know people disagree with me, but then again, I've never been known for RG Aggro.
-Alex
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Lost but Seeking
Guildmage
Joined: 31 Oct 2007
Posts: 262
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| Posted: Fri Nov 02, 2007 12:55 pm Post subject: |
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I think I'd still prefer the Guildmage even vs Burn Range. Because if the Red mage dispatches my every creature (which is often the case) with his burn I'll end up with a meager 1/1 in hand, instead of a 1/1 capable of taking down opposing Wolfverines and Frostlings when I want, or killing smth bigger.  Pain is of course accumulating but it's still a more useful effect than the Skulk who imho can only shine in pump/equip decks.
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Classic 8.08,9.07 | Euro 3.05,3.07,3.08,4.04,4.06(UnCon Edition),5.03,6.02,6.16 | Mini 3.03,3.05,4.05,4.07,4.11,5.14,5.16,6.03,6.09,6.11 | UPDC 1.10 |
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SillyMagician
Apprentice
Joined: 11 Nov 2007
Posts: 107
Location: Torrance, CA
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| Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 10:51 pm Post subject: |
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I've always loved G/R aggro and have been steadily building it for some time. Played in my first ever pauper tournie and got T8 so I'm pleased with that! Here's the list
Technik4 on MTGO
R/G Aggro
3 Basking Rootwalla
1 Bonesplitter
3 Fireblast
9 Forest
3 Frostling
4 Incinerate
4 Lightning Bolt
10 Mountain
4 River Boa
4 Scab-Clan Mauler
4 Seal of Fire
3 Skarrgan Pit-Skulk
3 Gathan Raiders
4 Rift Bolt
1 Terramorphic Expanse
Sideboard
4 Horned Kavu
4 Jolrael's Centaur
4 Tin Street Hooligan
3 Martyr of Ashes
Some of the 3-ofs are due to not having the right cards (Basking Rootwalla), others were conscious decisions. Games went like this:
Match 1 vs Krosanbeast9539 playing Orzhov
G1 and G2 I ran him over. Sideboarded in some Horned Kavu to fight pillories, guardian of the guildpacts and other orzhov trickery and it seemed to work well.
Match 2 vs SubliminalMan2 playing Black Affinity
G1 was not much of a race, I had the uber start of 3 scab-clan maulers off a basking rootwalla. G2 he made a crucial error and tried to rush of knowledge with a bunch of artifact land and springleaf drums and a single Myr Enforcerer. I had 2 frostlings out and a seal of fire in play, but it only cost me a bolt from the hand and a frostling to turn draw 7 into draw 1.
Match 3 vs Mr Slippery 39 playing Elvish Rock
This was the closest match yet. G1 I took the standard g/r way, bulldozing over elves. G2 I sided in martyr of ashes to fight the elvish horde and while I got a couple good activations off I wasn't fast enough and his card advantage (all 4 Wirewood Heralds) overwhelmed me. I made a key error when I had stabilized the board with a gathan raider, my hand was land, rift bolt, and Incinerate. I incinerated a herald to power through with the raider, but did not suspend the rift bolt before my attack. He searched up Nameless Inversion and got my raider at instant speed, costing me the game. G3 was short as he mulled twice with no land and kept a fiver on the draw with no land (and didnt draw any).
Top 8 vs Gravespawn Goddess running Angel Stompy
G1 I lost the die roll but won the game. It was a race but I managed to swing it around in my favor. Ledgewalker and Cloaks failed to make an appearance. G2 I sided in the martyrs and sided out the boas, hoping to sweep the smaller guys away. She was down to 5 and I had a fireblast but topdecked a mountain and couldn't hold off another attack and she cloaked a wild mongrel that turn. I martyr'd it, fireblasted it, but she pumped it and swung for the win. G3 was like the second game, but faster for the cloak to come out. I had multiple Martyrs but couldn't deal with the cloaked ledgewalker.
Overall it was a very fun time. I'll try and make the next one though I usually work Tuesdays. I talked with some folks and would definintely get the kavus out of the sideboard. I put them in there to deal with Orzhov (and they are great) as well as a second guy that can contain Guardian of the Guildpact, but I really needed an answer to Angel Stompy, which is a top deck and something that warrants sideboard space. Serene Heart, Naturalize, or Nantuko Vigilante might have given me better odds in the last match.
And the terramorphic expanse cost me that second game against GravespwnGoddess, I'm sure since I was only 1 point away and had to play it second turn. Arg, my own stupidity at thinking drawing one late game would thin the deck or it would be my savior if I was hosed for one color  |
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Boin
Planeswalker
Joined: 03 Nov 2007
Posts: 1530
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| Posted: Fri Nov 16, 2007 10:32 pm Post subject: |
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| How big a problem is mana for your deck? I've always found that that with two color aggro decks my mana base would lose me a lot of games. But addmitedly I'm baised. |
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SillyMagician
Apprentice
Joined: 11 Nov 2007
Posts: 107
Location: Torrance, CA
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| Posted: Fri Nov 16, 2007 11:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | How big a problem is mana for your deck? I've always found that that with two color aggro decks my mana base would lose me a lot of games. But addmitedly I'm baised. |
I deviated a little from what I had seen in other R/G decklists by trying for the constructed tried-and-true formula of 20 creatures, 20 burn, 20 land. I ended up with 19 burn cards and did not want to run a 4th fireblast (which I also don't own) so I decided on a Bonesplitter as it could a) throw people off if they thought I had more than 1 and b) count as recurring burn, equipping it and swinging twice is 3 colorless for 4 damage, and c) seriously power up a pit skulk.
My theory on lands was I wanted every land to come into play untapped because this deck can generally maximize all of its mana for the first 5 turns and win (which is why I wanted rift bolts over BaronSengir's offer to lend me some firebolts, which I did not own). My only error of judgment was running 1 terramorphic expanse, which is really terrible and forced me to mulligan at least once. I've seen SpikeBoy's list with 2 gruul turfs and 1 of each of the cycling lands and had been testing with 1 turf and 1 of each of the cycling lands but took them out before the tournament started.
Mana is a big issue and if there were any decks packing fast land destruction then popping my sole mountain could be back breaking. But it seems classic is generally too fast for much LD (and lacks all the free land destroyers like Strip Mine and Wasteland).
My latest list is as the one above, with Firebolts (which I recently got 4 for a tic) replacing Rift bolts and the Turf replacing the expanse. I also have Naturalize replacing Horned Kavu, but I need to trade for some Nantuko Vigilantes and test those too. Nantuko is obviously better if it comes down before the cloak, but naturalize is cheaper and seems like it can end the threat for less mana. Ideally you never want to be climbing back up from a cloak deck, but turn 4 cloak on a ledgewalker there is little else you can do.
I'm still going back and forth on firebolt vs riftbolt. Riftbolt can trigger a mauler the turn before which is important and can also stack spells against MUC so you can punch through on a mana light hand. Firebolt is much better when you're topdecking lands and need a couple more points to finish them off. Generally my feeling is that the rift bolt would have done those couple more points, so why bother with firebolt, but I want to test both.
I also still need to get some Wild Mongrels and test them, but while they seem to offer a better late-game plan of discarding land (and the early combo with basking rootwalla) they seem worse than frostling in many matchups. Frostling can take out annoying oppose threats or just keep them off the board through the threat of ping and ensures that your 3 damage goes to their head, not their creatures. They also block and kill 2/2s. Finally they combo nicely with a 3 damage spell to hit for 4. They are pseudo-burn and let the real burn spells do what they are supposed to do.
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SpikeBoyM
Community Liaison
Joined: 23 Oct 2007
Posts: 1373
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| Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 10:47 am Post subject: |
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The biggest problem with the 20-20-20 model in PDC is the lack of great cheap creatures. Yes, we have many of the best two drops event (Mongrel, Boa), but lack superb one drops. Look at the 20-20-20 Boros decklists that were popular during Kamigawa-Ravnica Standard and to some extent continue to be popular in Extended. They have access to Isamaru or Savannah Lions, as well as Grim Lavamancer, Mogg Fanatic (and if we really want to go back, Jackal Pup). These incredibly strong one drops allow the decks to run in the 20-20-20 mode, as well as lands that can produce either color of mana on turn one, perhaps the greatest barrier to the 3-20 model in PDC.
In RG, there is only one one drop that I would consider for a 3-20 build (currently), and that is Granger Guildmage. Mtenda Lion is okay, except Blue is every where. Pit-Skulk is similarly okay. Frostling and Karplusan Wolverine do not fit in with the rest of traditional RG aggro- when Tempest comes we will probably see a migration toward Mogg Fantastic. Ghazban Ogre would be stellar, except between Burn Range and Aven Riftwatcher, the risk is far greater than the reward.
The burn aspect is also lacking in some repsects (although not as greatly). While our burn is worse (no Lightning Helix, no Char), we have access to the same "number" of damage, albeit in a different cost.
20-20-20 is a great model for "power" aggro decks, but in PDC, where we are wont for dual lands, it will be an unrealized dream for the time being (barring Burn Range, of course, which only needs R).
-Alex
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Lost but Seeking
Guildmage
Joined: 31 Oct 2007
Posts: 262
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| Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 1:23 pm Post subject: |
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I can't agree more, Alex.
My experince with RG showed that these are exactly the 2 woes of this archetype in PDC - lack of stellar 1cc drops and mana. Strong control cards like Aven Riftwatcher coupled with Blink make dealing fast 20 even more difficult.
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Classic 8.08,9.07 | Euro 3.05,3.07,3.08,4.04,4.06(UnCon Edition),5.03,6.02,6.16 | Mini 3.03,3.05,4.05,4.07,4.11,5.14,5.16,6.03,6.09,6.11 | UPDC 1.10 |
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Rancorous Fool
Eager Cadet
Joined: 17 Nov 2007
Posts: 12
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| Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 9:49 am Post subject: |
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Have you considered playing "bad" 1 drops such as goblin cohort?
its R
2/2
if you did not play a critter this turn, it cannot attack.
Janky? yes. Unfathomable? Not at all.
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SpikeBoyM
Community Liaison
Joined: 23 Oct 2007
Posts: 1373
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| Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 10:02 am Post subject: |
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Don't get me wrong, I love Goblin Cohort, in a deck that can draw and play a creature every turn (ideally more than 26 creatures). RG Aggro does not fit this mold. Additionally, RG aggro wants Green mana early for Mongrel and Boa and 'Walla. Cohort just is not good enough to warp mana ratios. Mogg Fanatic, on the other hand...
-Alex
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